Author Topic: Trutine of Hermes  (Read 970 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2021, 08:44:02 AM »
Hi Jean and Roberto - I've been reading Lilly's section on the Trutine of Hermes. He sets out the method quite methodically, but at points it is somewhat difficult to follow.

The first stage, which seems relatively clear, is to work out the distance from the Moon to the horizon in the unrectified chart in the following way.

If the Moon is below the horizon, add one day to 273 days for every twelve degrees the moon is distant from the ascendant.
If the Moon is above the horizon, subtract one day from 273 days for every twelve degrees the moon is distant from the descendant.

So for example, if the Moon is below the horizon in a horoscope, and it is 120 degrees from the ascendant, the adjustment figure in days would be 273 + 10 = 283 days. In this case, the day of conception would be 283 days before the date of birth.

If the Moon is above the horizon and it is 120 degrees from the descendant, the adjustment figure in days would be 273 - 10 = 263 days. In this case the day of conception would be 263 days before the date of birth.

In your script Jean the output gives five options of conception dates, only one of which is within Lilly's range of 273 days +/- 15 days. These additional alternatives could potentially be misleading so it might be best to remove them.

In my chart I get the correct figure of 274 days since my Moon is just over 12 degrees from the ascendant that I use, but I'm not sure if your algorithm works as above Jean. I would need to take a closer look at the code. The degree, minute and second of the conception ascendant then is matched to the degree, minute and second of the natal moon.

I think the rectification process would then be to move the ascendant of the natal chart until it matches the exact degree, minute and second of the position of the conception moon.

My guess is that the position of the unrectified natal moon needs to be pretty close to correct for this method to work, so it only seems to be for fine tuning a chart that is very nearly correct. If the unrectified natal moon is two or three or more degrees from its 'correct' position I can't see how the method would be useful. Of course, the position of the unrectified natal moon is, by definition, uncertain, so the logic seems quite circular to me.

Perhaps Roberto can clarify this for us.

I'll keep working on this in the background.

Ed

Jean

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2021, 10:00:23 AM »
Thanks Ed, finally something to hold on to.

I removed those 5 dates and calculated a conception time.
Code: [Select]
moonunder = if (normalize(planet[MOON] - planet[ASCENDANT]) < 180);
dist = distance(planet[MOON], planet[ASCENDANT]);
if (moonunder = 1)
  jd = birth - (273 + (dist / 12));
else
  jd = birth - (273 - (dist / 12));           ` conception time

Now what?

The degree, minute and second of the conception ascendant then is matched to the degree, minute and second of the conception moon.

This makes no sense to me, what do you mean?

Quote
I think the rectification process would then be to move the ascendant of the natal chart until it matches the exact degree, minute and second of the position of the conception moon.

So no need for those arrows to change birth time? It just gives a new birth time and that's it?
Greetings from Groningen Netherlands <º)))><¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º>

Jean

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2021, 12:24:13 PM »
Ok folks, there is a new version. It's quite simplified which is fine by me, there's enough 'creativity' going on, let's stick to the book.
This just presents a new horoscope with the method described.
One thing is not clear yet, the division of the distance between moon and ascendant, if that's restricted to whole numbers, meaning only 1, 2 or 3 and not 1.5, it will change the outcome because the conception date will differ.

The script is at
Code: [Select]
https://jcremers.com/code/ab/horoscope/Medieval/Trutine of Hermes.ab

Right click the page, do save as, and save to c:\planetdance\ab\horoscope\Medieval

Greetings from Groningen Netherlands <º)))><¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º>

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2021, 04:19:51 PM »
Hi Jean - Lilly only shows whole days, no decimals. Ed

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2021, 08:27:47 PM »
Hi there - we think we have finally worked this module out. Jean will release shortly:

Horoscope-Medieval-Trutine of Hermes: The Trutine of Hermes is a rectification method of the birth time based on the Moon.

From the Help:

The Trutine of Hermes is a rectification method of the birth time based on the Moon, which is a natural significator of women and pregnancy. The method is described by William Lilly in Christian Astrology. You can find the explanation of the method and how to find the date of conception on pp.502-505 of his book (original pagination).

The Trutina Hermetis method of rectification is based on the assumption that the placement of the Moon at the time of birth is that of the Ascendant at conception, and that the degree of the Ascendant at birth is that of the Moon at conception.

To use the module follow these steps:

1. Choose the horoscope that you wish to rectify from the selection in the main Planetdance window
2. Open the module. This will bring up a separate window with a bi-wheel displayed in it. The inner wheel is the uncorrected natal chart. The outer wheel is the closest date to the potential conception date for the nativity. Lilly gives a range of potential conception days from 258 days before birth to 288 days before with an average of 273 days before birth.
3. This figure is calculated by determining the distance from the moon to the ascendant (if the moon is below the horizon in the uncorrected chart) or the distance from the descendant to the moon (if the moon is above the horizon).
4. This figure is then divided by 12 degree sections and the resulting quotient is the number of whole days +/- 273 days before the birthdate.
5. For example, if the Moon is below the horizon in a horoscope, and it is 120 degrees from the ascendant, the adjustment figure in days would be 273 + 10 = 283 days. In this case, the day of conception would be 283 days before the date of birth.
6. If the Moon is above the horizon and it is 120 degrees from the descendant, the adjustment figure in days would be 273 - 10 = 263 days. In this case the day of conception would be 263 days before the date of birth.
7. The potential date of conception is identified in the textbox in the module window. The outer wheel shows the chart for this potential conception date.
8. The uncorrected natal chart is then rectified using the column of updown buttons on the left hand side of the screen. The chart can be adjusted by days/hours/minutes and seconds. In reality, if the conception moon is close to the uncorrected ascendant of the inner chart, you will only need to use the minute and seconds correction buttons.
9. If the conception moon is more than a few degrees distant from the ascendant, it is very likely you will have to adjust the conception date using the single updown button below the textbox. This is because if the moon is distant from the ascendant it will be impossible to bring the natal ascendant to the degree of the conception moon, and a new conception chart will need to be calculated. This new conception date may be within the range of up to +/- 2 days.
10. When the corrected degree of the natal chart in the inner wheel meets the degree of the conception moon precisely (within a few seconds of arc), the new, corrected natal chart can be cast in the main Planetdance window using the relevant menu item. Users will need to save this chart if they wish to retain it for further study.

NOTE: in many instances, particularly if the conception date needs to be changed, users will have a choice of conception moon positions (above or below the horizon). In this case, users will have to make a judgement based on other factors within the chart, about which position is to be used to correct the ascendant.

Roberto

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2021, 11:26:32 PM »
Hi Jean, Ed thanks for working on the Trutine. Just download the new update and tried, after found a new prenatal date and going to set a new rectified horoscope I was expecting a new natal chart with a new time of birth, but seems that I had as a result my initial birth chart. Can be me or is a bug?

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2021, 06:14:13 AM »
Hi Roberto - I'm not sure what the problem is. I have just checked again on my installation and it works fine. Could you send me the details of the chart you were working on. Ed

Roberto

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2021, 01:41:03 PM »
Hi Ed,
I think I found my mistake; I was using the program in the wrong way.
The steps to follow are:
1)   Find the prenatal moon close to the gestation time.
2)   **MANUALLY** adjust the time to make the position of the moon, in the prenatal chart, close to the Asc (or Desc).
3)   Only after step 2, “Set Rectified Horoscope” to have the new chart with the new birth time.
My error was that I was expecting that, the program, after step one, automatically make the adjustment, and cast the new chart, with the rectified time pressing “Set Rectified Horoscope”.
I tried the 3 steps, and I had the result that I was expecting, only a few minutes of difference, which means that the time on my birth certificate was quite exact.
Thank Ed and Jean, to work on this project, very appreciated.
Roberto

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2021, 01:50:20 PM »
Thanks Roberto - there is an element of judgment in using this method, so it's not possible to code so that the machine can decide. Thanks for letting me know. Ed

Jean

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
    • View Profile
Re: Trutine of Hermes
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2021, 02:12:36 PM »
I'm so relieved this has come to an end, it's about time. Roberto we started this over a year ago. I wanted it in but i did not have sufficient info, examples from other software were more confusing as helping.
So thanks to Ed for this and to you Roberto for the continuing quality control.
Greetings from Groningen Netherlands <º)))><¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º>