Author Topic: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module  (Read 3997 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mercurio0311

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2022, 04:12:59 PM »
As a side note... I have maps made by Valens in which they are unfailingly calculated with sidereal positions (and two scholars agree on this: Rafael Gil Brand, sideralist. Like Albert MAsdeu, Tropicalist).
I have an article on the subject, unfortunately it is written in Spanish, but with the help of Google I hope you can read it. In the article there are some links in English that show the results of the studies... If at some point you have time to read them.

All of the above is simply that, assuming that Valens used a Sidereal zodiac in his calculations, then it is not so illogical to use the Ascension Times in the current sidereal zodiac (making the necessary mathematical adjustments of course!! )

Again, thank you very much for taking your time and studying the topic!!!

https://mercurioapuntesastrologicos.blogspot.com/2022/04/cartas-sidereales-en-la-antiguedad-solo.html

Estoy muy agradecido!!!! Me encanta PlanetDance y tiene todo lo que hace falta. No me gusta andar abriendo varios software, además de que es una pérdida de tiempo.
Como nota al márgen.... Tengo mapas realizadas por Valens en las que indefectiblemente ellas están calculadas con posiciones siderales (y en esto están de acuerdo dos estudiosos Rafael Gil Brand, sideralista. Como Albert MAsdeu, Tropicalista).
Tengo un artículo sobre el tema, lamentablemente está escrito en idioma castellano, pero con la ayuda de Google ojalá puedas leerlo. En el artículo hay algunos link en ingles que muestran el resutado de los estudios... Si es que en algún momento tienes tiempo de lerlos.

Todo lo anterior es simplemente que, partiendo de la hipótesis de que Valens usaba un zodíaco Sideral en sus cálculos, entonces no es tan ilógico usar los Tiempos de Ascención en el zodíco sideral actual (haciendo los ajustes matemáticos necesarios, por supuesto!!)

De nuevo, muchas gracias por tomarte tu tiempo y estudiar el tema!!!

https://mercurioapuntesastrologicos.blogspot.com/2022/04/cartas-siderales-en-la-antiguedad-solo.html

Mercurio0311

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2022, 04:41:39 PM »
I leave another article (I have a page on Facebook with many examples, but it is private and the link would not work) with an example of the use of the Bounds in the E K Ross map and the directed Asc.

https://mercurioapuntesastrologicos.blogspot.com/2022/07/elisabeth-k-ross-y-el-asc-dirigido-por.html


Dejo otro artículo (tengo una pág en Facebook con muchísimo ejemplos, pero es privada y el link no funcionaría) con un ejemplo del uso de los Téminos en el mapa de E K Ross y el Asc dirigido.

https://mercurioapuntesastrologicos.blogspot.com/2022/07/elisabeth-k-ross-y-el-asc-dirigido-por.html

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 945
    • View Profile
Re: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2022, 06:56:20 PM »
Thanks Mercurio - that's helpful to have the links. I'm sure I will be able to get a basic understanding of the texts using Google Translate.

Best wishes. Ed

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 945
    • View Profile
Re: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2022, 08:29:07 PM »
Hi there - I have solved this for you. I have the sidereal calculations working for both ascensional times and Ptolemaic primaries. The solution in both cases is to re-apply the value of the ayanamsa to the longitudes. So for the primaries, I have had to add the ayanamsa to the longitude of the sidereal MC, effectively reversing the sidereal 'correction', so that the RAMC is the one that would have been used with the tropical MC. Then the ayanamsa needs to re-applied to the longitude of the ascendant and each bound cusp. This also effectively reverses the sidereal 'correction' for the movement of the ecliptic across the horizon to give the tropical oblique ascensions.

So, in conclusion, the rising of the sidereal bounds can only be calculated by hybridising the sidereal values and the tropical values. I have to be honest, this sounds like a mash up to me, and quite bizarre. Are we doing sidereal astrology or not? It seems to me that in this case we're not, but just overlaying the sidereal zodiac onto something that, at its foundation, is tropical. This really throws the whole sidereal zodiac into doubt in my mind. The fundamental issue is the uncoupling of the right ascension of the MC from the oblique ascension of the ascendant when using the sidereal zodiac. My view is that this technique - ascensions through the bounds - can only be deployed by effectively reversing the sidereal correction, calculating tropically, and then working 'as if' the sidereal zodiac is still in use. I find it difficult to know what sense this makes.

Another way of looking at this is that degree of the sidereal MC is not the degree of the midheaven crossing the meridian at the time for which the chart is drawn. It's difficult to know what the sidereal MC means in this case, if it is uncoupled from the meridian. The sidereal correction removes this link and it is only by restoring it, to return to the original RAMC and the tropical MC, that the technique can be calculated correctly. The issue is similar with the ascendant. The sidereal degree of the ascendant is not associated with the oblique ascension of the zodiac that is actually rising at the time for which the chart is drawn. Again, it is only be restoring the ayanamsa value that the correct oblique ascension can be calculated. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure this is what is going on.

I'm sorry to speak so plainly, but you might wish to reflect on this. You are, of course, welcome to draw your own conclusions. Valens might have been using a sidereal zodiac, but with the modest ayanamsa correction made in his time, and the levels of precision he was concerned with, I don't think it mattered. But clearly, with an ayanamsa of around 22 degrees, it's quite a different matter.

I will test this some more. Once I am assured that it is working OK you are welcome to have a bespoke copy, but I'm quite unsure whether to release it generally.

Thanks for raising this most thought provoking scenario. It's been helpful to work through.

Mercurio0311

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2022, 01:02:07 AM »
I am so grateful that you took the time to try to resolve my issue, whether or not my request seemed logical. We have trouble making ourselves understood fluently because of the language barrier :) I could give you hundreds of examples where Ascendant Ascension Time using the Sidereal zodiac really works. But it really doesn't matter if you convince anyone. For 25 years I used the Tropical zodiac until I started researching the sidereal zodiac. At first it was hard for me to convince myself of the usefulness of such a zodiac, but time paid off. I repeat, I am very grateful for the amount of tools that Planet Dance has, all the necessary ones for any serious researcher in the matter. (even I'm still learning how to handle it) THANKS AGAIN!!

Estoy muy agradecido de que se haya tomado el tiempo para tratar de resolver mi problema, ya sea que parezca lógico o no mi pedido. Tenemos problemas para hacernos entender de manera fluída por la barrera del idioma  :) Podría darle cientos de ejemplos en dónde el Tiempo de Ascención del Ascendente usando el zodíaco Sideral, realmente funciona. Pero realmente no importa convencer a nadie. Por 25 años usé el zodíaco Tropical hasta que empecé a investigar el zodíaco sideral. Al principio me costó convencerme de la utilidad de tal zodíaco, pero el tiempo dió sus frutos.

Repito, estoy muy agradecido por la cantidad de herramientas que posee Planet Dance, todas las necesarias para cualquier investigador serio en la materia. (incluso aún sigo aprendiendo a manejarlo)

GRACIAS NUEVAMENTE!!

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 945
    • View Profile
Re: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2022, 06:50:34 AM »
Hi Mercurio - no problem - it's been a very interesting challenge to solve. I'll have a go with the sidereal zodiac myself and see what I think. If you want to send me your email by personal message through the forum I will send you a copy of the amended version of the module. You can test it then and make sure it's ok. I got the dates to agree with Petr's Astro-seek data to within a day if not exact, so this must be the right methodology as his calculations are very robust.

Thanks for the opportunity to do this for you and I hope your investigations go well.

All the best. Ed

Mercurio0311

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2022, 03:05:32 PM »
Te paso mi mail

Gracias nuevamente!!

ABer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 945
    • View Profile
Re: Circumambulation through the Bounds Module
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2022, 04:21:31 PM »
Thanks Mercurio - I have sent this to you by email. Ed