Author Topic: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format  (Read 4620 times)

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starsgaze

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2024, 07:18:46 AM »
Hi Starsgaze - do you have a source for these definitions please. I may have the text and it would be helpful to refer to.

Can you provide definitions of the key concepts:

Mutual generosity
Reception

I know you have probably already given these but it would be helpful to have them precisely defined.

Do you count aspects only when Ptolemaic (and conjunction?) and within moiety and/or orb?

Thanks. Ed

Hi Ed,
yes, only the major aspects and within the medieval practice of the moiety. Attached is the default horoscope for trump. the values for the orbs are the same as the one you set for the aspects in the current medieval traditional module.

1. for the definitions, there are quite a few, especially for receptions, but notably, you can check out Bonatti's, Treatise 3
"...if some planet is joined with the Lord of the sign in which it is (or with the Lord of the exaltation of the same sign, or with the Lord of the term or triplicity, or decan, whether by body or by aspect, that the planet who is the Lord of the sign (or some dignity of it) commits and give its own disposition and nature and virtue to it."
"...if it is joined with the Lord of the domicile or exaltation, or with the lord of the two of the other minor dignities (namely with the lord of the term and triplicity, or with the lord of the term and the decan, or with the lord of the decan and the triplicity).."

Also, in  Abu Mashar, in Great Introduction to the Science of the Stars, or in Abbreviation of the Introduction to Astrology.
"'Reception' is when a planet (A) applies to a planet (B) from the house of the planet (B) to which it applies or from its (B's) exaltation, term, triplicity or decan, then it (B) receives it (A). Or the receiver of the application (B) is in the house of the pushing planet (A) or in its other shares which we have mentioned before, then it (B) receives it (A). The strongest of these is the Lord of the house or of the exaltation. The Lord of the term or triplicity or decan are weak unless two or more of them are joined."

2. As for generosity/liberality, its a term translated in Ibn Ezra in Beginning of Wisdom, "...each of the two planets is in the house of its companion, or in the house of its honor, or any of its influences, and even though they do not enter into conjunction or aspect with each other, still there will be reception between them"

Basically, its simply either with or without aspect. for 2), the word has evolved to mutual reception. But it can be confused with the the more common form of receptions, which involve aspects. Also, in some cases, applying or not for the aspect are considered, but in one's practice, these may be more of concern for horary.

So for Trump's chart, the 'receptions/generosity' are:
-Moon received by Jupiter
-Moon and Saturn in Generosity
-Venus and Jupiter in Generosity
-Mars received by Sun
-Jupiter and Saturn in Mutual Reception

Initially, under Options>Settings, there is a checkbox for Show Classic Receptions. I thought these could show the medieval receptions list, but they are for "mutual receptions" the modern definitions.
If the above 5 can be shown right beside the horoscope, it will greatly help one to dive straight to interpretation/delineating w/o extra steps of determining.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 07:33:38 AM by starsgaze »

ABer

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2024, 07:27:08 AM »
Thanks so much - that's very clear. I will work on this for the medieval module. I think it should be achievable with some minor changes to the existing code.

Best wishes. Ed

starsgaze

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2024, 07:31:37 AM »
Hi there - how does this look to you? See screenshot attachment.

Ed

Nice Ed!
Right away, from the aspects line, one can see Jupiter and Venus/Saturn square. But, unless one memorizes the orbs for all and calculates, strictly speaking, it is Jupiter Saturn square and not venus. (whether venus is affected by the square, thats another topic, here im just pointing out aspects as is"), hence the table of aspects besides the horoscope can be helpful.
I am currently trying to understand the moiety scope in the medieval traditional module, to see if its more intuitive or not in my practice.


starsgaze

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2024, 07:38:07 AM »

-Moon and Saturn in Generosity


In case one wonders why, Moon is in Saturn's Triplicity, Term and Face.
"...or with the lord of the two of the other minor dignities"

ABer

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2024, 07:41:02 AM »
Hi Stargaze - thanks again. I understand the Moon/Saturn connection. I'm puzzled by the Sun/Mars reception. Can you give some more detail.

Sun and Mars are in aspect, but Sun has only one count of dignity? By face/decan.

The others are clear.

Ed

starsgaze

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2024, 07:52:03 AM »
Hi Ed,
Mara is in Sun's domicile, and they are in aspect, hence Sun receives Mars, i.e., mars received by Sun.

ABer

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2024, 08:11:50 AM »
OK - so 'simple reception' is just about aspect, and any dignity accorded to the receiving planet is a bonus, so to speak? In Trump's case it is sufficient that there is an aspect between Sun and Mars for a reception to occur?


starsgaze

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2024, 08:27:57 AM »
Hi Ed,
Unsure what you meant by "just about aspect, and any dignity..."

E.g. Jupiter and Sun are in aspect, but there's no reception. Sun is only in Jup's triplicity. Jup is not in Sun's dignity.

Hence, reception by medieval def, is when a planet is in aspect with its domicile ruler, or exaltation ruler, or with it's trip/term/decan ruler (requiring at least two).

E.g. Mercury in 0 degrees of Gemini. In aspect with Jupiter.
Mercury is received by Jupiter.
As Jupiter is the triplicity AND face ruler of 0 degrees Gemini

ABer

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2024, 10:31:47 AM »
Hi again - so, Trump's case:

Mars is ruled by the Sun (Mars in Leo), and Mars and Sun are in aspect, hence Mars is received by the Sun. The fact that the Sun only has one count of dignity by face is irrelevant. If the Sun was peregrine (without any dignity) this would also be irrelevant, as long as the aspect is there?

If, let's say, Trump's Mars was in Aries, in Ptolemaic aspect to the Sun (within orbs), Mars would be received by the Sun on account of Mars being in the sign of the Sun's exaltation? The Sun does not need to have any dignity for this to be the case?

A hypothetical example:

Mars in 21 Libra, in the bounds and face of Jupiter, is received by Jupiter in 21 Gemini by trine, even though Jupiter is in detriment.
Mars at 16 Libra, in the bounds of Jupiter, would not be received by Jupiter at 16 Gemini, because there is only on count of minor dignity for Jupiter in this position of Mars.

I may have missed this one, but what about the case, let's say, between an undignified Mars in aspect to a dignified Jupiter. Is there any relationship between these two positions apart from the aspect? To me this seems more logical, given that the dignified Jupiter brings its dignity to the Mars by aspect?

I can see that Mars in a dignity (or two) of Jupiter would benefit from being in aspect to a dignified Jupiter (this would be accounted for by either of the generosity or mutual reception conditions).

Thanks. Ed




starsgaze

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2024, 11:14:47 AM »
Hi again - so, Trump's case:

Mars is ruled by the Sun (Mars in Leo), and Mars and Sun are in aspect, hence Mars is received by the Sun. The fact that the Sun only has one count of dignity by face is irrelevant. If the Sun was peregrine (without any dignity) this would also be irrelevant, as long as the aspect is there?

>Yes you are right. This is from Mar's perspective. This is the simplest reception, whereby A receive B. (one way).

Quote

If, let's say, Trump's Mars was in Aries, in Ptolemaic aspect to the Sun (within orbs), Mars would be received by the Sun on account of Mars being in the sign of the Sun's exaltation? The Sun does not need to have any dignity for this to be the case?
>Yes, you are right. From these two examples, you can also foresee there are situations there are mutual receptions, whereby A receive B, B also receive A. Bearing in mind A and B are in aspect.

Quote

A hypothetical example:

Mars in 21 Libra, in the bounds and face of Jupiter, is received by Jupiter in 21 Gemini by trine, even though Jupiter is in detriment.
>Strictly speaking, Mars is indeed received by Jupiter. Jupiter is in detriment or fall and how it affects the reception, will depends on one's own practice. There are some differences out there on how one interpret this. You can have a look at Morin's text or Zoller for their take on this. But that is interpretative domain, principles wise, Mars is received by Jupiter.

Quote

Mars at 16 Libra, in the bounds of Jupiter, would not be received by Jupiter at 16 Gemini, because there is only on count of minor dignity for Jupiter in this position of Mars.
>No, Mars is received by Jupiter. Mars besides being in bounds of Jupiter, is also in the triplicity of Jupiter (Air sign). The three triplicity rulers are taken into consideration.

Quote

I may have missed this one, but what about the case, let's say, between an undignified Mars in aspect to a dignified Jupiter. Is there any relationship between these two positions apart from the aspect?
>Do you mean by Mars not in any of Jupiter's dignity or?

Quote

I can see that Mars in a dignity (or two) of Jupiter would benefit from being in aspect to a dignified Jupiter (this would be accounted for by either of the generosity or mutual reception conditions).

> "Mars in a dignity (or two) of Jupiter would benefit from being in aspect to a dignified Jupiter"

This would be minimally reception. Jupiter received Mars. Mutual reception will happen if Jupiter is also in Mar's dignity, (or at least two of the minor dignities).

In generosity, it only happens when two planets are in each other's dignity (or at least two of the minor dignities), and without an aspect. this term somehow over time evolve into the more modern definition of mutual reception. In hellenistic, somewhat similar to Exchange.
Regardless, generosity/exchange or how we wish to call it, and mutual reception are distinct. Whether one treats them as the same in his or her interpretative practices, that is one's call obviously.



« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 11:24:36 AM by starsgaze »

ABer

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2024, 12:37:44 PM »
OK - this stuff is tricky to code - too many 'ifs and buts'. Computers don't like this sort of thing. Leave it with me and I'll see what I can do.

With 'undignified Mars' example - yes - Mars is has no dignities attributable to the other planet, but is in aspect with the other planet, which is itself dignified. Is this a thing?

Ed

starsgaze

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2024, 12:53:53 PM »
Hi Ed,
Nope, that's simply an aspect between Mars and that dignified planet. More about interpretation.


ABer

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2024, 04:36:02 PM »
Hi there - can you confirm which term ruler system you are using please. Is it Ptolemaic? Ed

starsgaze

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2024, 05:13:53 PM »
Hi,
I am using Egyptian bounds

ABer

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Re: Medieval Traditional Chart - Tabbed Format
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2024, 06:17:26 PM »
Thanks - can you clarify the orb degrees that you are using please. Ed